Paula Vennells secret tape shows former Post Office boss was told about Horizon problems

New recordings show Paula Vennells - the former Post Office boss who oversaw the wrongful convictions of dozens of sub postmasters during the Horizon scandal - knew their were problems the firm later denied, it has been claimed.

ITV News has revealed details of a secret audio recording that shows Vennells was told directly about problems with the controversial system - and warned not to cover them up. As dozens of sub postmasters faced jail for alleged fraud, the recording alleges Vennells was also told by investigators the company’s position in denying Horizon faults was both "dangerous" and "stupid".

The workers were found guilty, partly on the basis that remote access to their branch accounts was not possible, meaning they were to blame. But in a meeting with independent investigators from Second Sight on July 2, 2013, Vennells was made aware of claims sub-postmaster accounts could be accessed remotely. The claim was denied by the Post Office for years as the convictions continued.

It later emerged staff at Fujitsu - which developed the Horizon system - were able to access accounts remotely from their Bracknell HQ and were fixing bugs caused by the faulty computer system.

As the head of the Post Office between 2012 and 2019, Vennells handed back her CBE in February, after an ITV dramatisation telling the sub postmasters' story, was aired.

In the taped meeting revealed by ITV News, Vennells is briefed by forensic accountants Ron Warmington and Ian Henderson from Second Sight, who were investigating possible issues with Horizon on behalf of the Post Office. They can be heard telling her and other Post Office chiefs: "When you say they didn't have access to the Horizon system, but actually they were passing entries to live data ... that is really dangerous ground.

"The last thing you want is a spot review response that says, categorically, there was no access to live data from Bracknell. If in a week's time some bloody whistleblower pipes up to say, well, actually I was working on the second floor and we routinely did ‘X’."

At the meeting, ITV News said, Mr Warmington and Mr Henderson expressed concerns the Post Office was not being transparent about the possibility of branch accounts being accessed by Fujitsu workers remotely. "That sort of what might be interpreted in the press as weasel wording, um, is extremely dangerous," they went on.

"We're not just asking whether people in that basement had access to live systems, even if your answer is, 'they did have access to what they called the live system, but it wasn't live', which itself, you know, we're having to kind of word carefully to make it sound other than stupid... When you say they didn't have access to the Horizon system, but actually they were passing entries to live data. Um, but you didn't ask that, that, that is really dangerous ground."

The Post Office continued to deny remote access was possible until 2019 - six years after the meeting in the recording. A senior Post Office official is also heard telling Vennells and others they are interviewing Fujitsu staff about remote access, saying they were checking "who has access throughout that whole Bracknell building".

At the time of the 2013 meeting, sub postmasters were still being prosecuted for alleged fraud. In total, more than 900 sub-postmasters were convicted of fraud and theft.

ITV News said it had approached Ms Vennells for comment but not received a response.

However, in February, she said: "I have so far maintained my silence as I considered it inappropriate to comment publicly while the Inquiry remains ongoing and before I have provided my oral evidence. I am truly sorry for the devastation caused to the sub-postmasters and their families, whose lives were torn apart by being wrongly accused and wrongly prosecuted as a result of the Horizon system."

A Post Office spokesperson said: "The statutory public inquiry, chaired by a judge with the power to question witnesses under oath, is the best forum to examine the issues raised by this evidence. We continue to remain fully focused on supporting the inquiry get to the truth of what happened and accountability for that."

Mr Warmington and Mr Henderson declined to comment due to confidentiality agreements signed as part of the Post Office inquiry.

Details of the recording emerged a day after the BBC reported a draft report from 2017 showing Post Office bosses knew losses could be due to errors in the Horizon system. The document was produced amid the landmark Bates v Post Office case in the High Court, aimed at showing sub postmasters were not to blame for errors in the Horizon accounting system.

During those proceedings, the Post Office denied the computer system could be to blame, despite the draft report saying otherwise.